Curse

Gun Pierson · Mar 03, 2010, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

The BDS would be a reasonable price without farmers actually, because nobody would be running around with stacks of ectos. It's inflation, only the farmers can afford what the other farmers are selling. That being said there would be far fewer BDS's for sale, but people wouldn't be able to ask as much because people wouldn't HAVE as much. Disparity is worse for the economy than anything else.

Do you really believe that because people won't have that much that a wanted item that would become even more rare because it isn't farmed, would suddenly become cheap and in reach of most players? Ofcourse it would cost less compared to the current situation if everything gets devaluated, but it would be even more out of reach because it would become more rare.

What you say there is against the basic principles of economy and supply and demand.

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average wealth of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly as seen in the past when they reprinted wanted cards. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Orry · Mar 03, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Do you really believe that because people won't have that much that a wanted item that would become even more rare because it isn't farmed, would suddenly become cheap and in reach of most players? Ofcourse it would cost less compared to the current situation if everything gets devaluated, but it would be even more out of reach because it would become more rare.

What you say there is against the basic principles of economy and supply and demand.

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$ on ebay. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average income of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Except there are a set number of Black Lotus cards, there will never be more unless Wizards reprints. Which makes them more like a mini panda than a BDS. And it wouldn't lower the prices now to get rid of speed clears, but had they never existed in the first place it would be a different story. The biggest problem is ArenaNet didn't do the sensible thing and fix the skills as soon as they were released.

Reformed · Mar 03, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I'll demonstrate with a real life example why your analogy makes no sense. Before the global economy crisis you could buy a Black Lotus (Magic the Gathering) on ebay for around 1000$ on ebay. The price decreased and you can find one for 600-700 dollar now, but the average income of people decreased too so the situation is the same. If Wizards of the coast (publisher) would release an expansion reprinting the Black lotus, the prices of a black lotus would go down instantly. The reprinting would be like farming in GW.

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Orry · Mar 03, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Yes, I doubt they would ever reprint a card that they have pretty much banned from every format, and limited in the ones that their own rules don't allow cards to be banned in. Doubly so since they were wary to reprint a card like lightning bolt which is infinately less powerful than Black Lotus.

Black Lotus is worth a lot of money for more reasons than just being rare, there are other cards from Alpha that are just as rare but aren't worth as much because they aren't excessively overpowered. The BDS is simply rare, and an alright looking skin, that's it. It doesn't have a q7 14-28 50% chance to HCT and HSR with a +40 energy on it or anything, yes that's about how overpowered Black Lotus is.

Gun Pierson · Mar 03, 2010, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Except that WotC (Hasbro) had the common sense to recognize reprints of those cards would completely destroy the secondary market. It's also a tangible good versus a virtual one and that has it's own set of problems. I was a long time collector and had several of these pass through my hands over the years including a pair of mint Alphas and would have been furious if Hasbro had fired up the printing presses just to make new players happy.

Yes true, and I'm glad they didn't reprint them too because I would have lost a lot of cash.

But like you say, this is a virtual game and farmers are a positive thing imo, just because items get more accesible to more players, where as in MTG it depends on how much real money you have on your bank account, if you want to play type I tournaments at least.

Gill Halendt · Mar 03, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

This is what Anet said about that: 'Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade'

As long as we talk about "advanced farmers", fine with me. What's being hit with those nerfs is not just "advanced farming", but something more degenerated and excessive. Something that's still possible but a little toned down. So, what are we talking about here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Oh btw, I watched that pax interview at the time, the thing you should worry about is why nerfing makes Linsey nervous. 4thvariety worded it excellent on the previous page, it's a neverending downcycle of a loss of players which is bad for an mmo.

Basically, they're aware that people now just play for greed. People just care about "rewards". People just care about "efficiency", even if that means abusing something developers have volountarily let alone. Well, farmers have surpassed the limit and they decided not to accept these abuses anymore. Why this is so surprising to people is really beyond me.

I don't really believe people are leaving just for the nerfs. People are just growing tired of an old game, while e-drama rages and resentment against the developers rises. If people are leaving because they can't stand fixes and changes, well, good riddance. I don't think ANet can keep their customer base by just allowing any kind of degeneration only to please a portion of the remaining crowd either. Just to make an example, I keep on playing just because of my friends, since the game itself has been sucking big time for me since the launch of GW:EN. I am not going to buy GW2 it THAT'S how they mean to develop and mantain the game and rest assured I'm not alone.

You can't please everyone. Good companies choose to aim to a particular audience and market niche. GW was marketed as a competitive online RPG. It was different from the rest and aimed also at casual players.

It's time for ANet to make a choice: are they still for the "skill > time" claim? Or is GW2 going to be another grinding game where the most broken build wins?

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 03, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

not exactly. i feel that nerfs or not, it's no big deal. just adapt. the majority of whiners on this forum simply lack the imagination to find something else.

To be honest, this is a problem in every game of this type. 3 mindsets prevail:

1.Builders (I've been unbelieveably productive since the nerf!!)
2.Build Leechers (What build have you made for me to unwrap and use??)
3. Whingers (I can't run any of it without fail en masse, so please nerf everything, QQ!!)

Builders and Build Leechers are both productive, builders build, leechers take those builds and sometimes improve them. Neither of these types tend to sway towards the whingers side unless they cop constant blanket nerfs to everything they do. IMO it's the nerfs that are counter-productive here.

Last of all, we have the Whingers. These guys contribute nothing, adapt to little, and generally spend most of their time ruining everyone elses fun, usually because they're either elitist twats living in a little dream world they found in the 1.0 release rulebook, (You know it never really existed, tell them that..) or because they suffer from epic /fail, and just want to bring everyone else down to their level of suck.

IMO, it's obvious which group of players GW would be best without, unfortunately that's not going to happen either. I just hope at the end of the day that aNet realise this small slice of the GW demographic that frequents these forums, is not not NOT an accurate guideline to the general consensus of the overall community that hasn't yet been forced away from GW. Yet. IMO, the Whingers are the only group of these 3 that contributes nothing to GW, and as such, should just F.O.A.D.

Pandora's box · Mar 04, 2010, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

....It's time for ANet to make a choice: are they still for the "skill > time" claim? ..

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

Orry · Mar 04, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

One of the biggest misunderstandings, yet often brought up. But still a misunderstanding: In other games players are farming gear to become stronger: = time. In GW players are spending just as much time in unlocking the necessary skillsets. To spend time on getting gear or on unlocking skills, its just the same. There IS no difference with other games if you bring it back to the basics: how much time you spend to become stronger...

Which is why the skills need to be balanced so that you can become strong with a few early skills you have access too and any elite for your profession, as opposed to only one or two truly being viable.

jazilla · Mar 04, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

It has always been thus. You play what the update gives you. It just so happened that SF and Mite/600 teams had a good long while of play due to the lack of a solid update that people got way too attached to the builds/money/runs/items they were able to accomplish with them. I miss 600'ing on my ele/monk/rit. But guess what? I salvaged my armors and moved on. If you don't like the state of the game, move on. It has happened a thousand times and will happen at housand times more. Get over it.

DRGN · Mar 04, 2010, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

The BDS would be a reasonable price without farmers actually, because nobody would be running around with stacks of ectos. It's inflation, only the farmers can afford what the other farmers are selling. That being said there would be far fewer BDS's for sale, but people wouldn't be able to ask as much because people wouldn't HAVE as much. Disparity is worse for the economy than anything else.

Um, you think most of these people running around with stacks of Armbraces and tens of thousands of ectos farm?

Can someone answer this question: Why is making gobs of money farming with "invincibility" something that can't be permitted, but making obscene amounts of money from things such as cape leechers in gold trim guilds acceptable? Power trading yields enormous profits without having to ever leave an outpost. There seems to be a disconnect there. Why should someone who plays the game to clear an area fast be punished, but someone who makes more money without clearing any areas at all be left untouched? You can't nerf power traders, really, but is it fair to nerf farmers because you CAN nerf their method of income?

EDIT: I'm not saying "NERF POWERTRADING!". I'm just making a point.

Orry · Mar 04, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Um, you think most of these people running around with stacks of Armbraces and tens of thousands of ectos farm?

Can someone answer this question: Why is making gobs of money farming with "invincibility" something that can't be permitted, but making obscene amounts of money from things such as cape leechers in gold trim guilds acceptable? Power trading yields enormous profits without having to ever leave an outpost. There seems to be a disconnect there. Why should someone who plays the game to clear an area fast be punished, but someone who makes more money without clearing any areas at all be left untouched? You can't nerf power traders, really, but is it fair to nerf farmers because you CAN nerf their method of income?

What some call power-trading others call scamming, it's pretty much the same thing, sure you give a person what you tell them you're going to give them, but you cheat them out of money and rip off the person you sell it to. Some of it might even get you thrown in jail if it were real items you were dealing with.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 04, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

You can't nerf power traders

I don't imagine it's so hard to keep a vague eye on high-end trades and wipe the inventories + xunlai chests of people who're power trading at the highest levels. As long as it happens often enough that they whine about it on forums and make everyone aware it's happening, power trading will be hugely discouraged. Especially for those with exceedingly rare items, they won't want, say, a mini Vizu to get deleted because they got caught power trading.

But, that's what an awesome developer (like Valve*) would do; Anet wouldn't.

*the whole idling fiasco

AlsPals · Mar 04, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

You guys are totally off topic, but to the guy who said a Power Trader is scamming, know this: If the customer is ULTIMATELY happy with his purchase, everyone wins. Farmers like to get back to farming ASAP, so they dump goods at what they find are fair prices. Power Traders keep market supply up, even if its for a higher price. When you pay a higher price, you are paying for convenience. If you know what its like trying to farm for Elemental Swords pre-eotn, or Crystaline swords from the HoH chest, you realize you paying a premium allows you to get on with your business much sooner than you trying to farm it for yourself. Altruism is nice and all, but demonizing powertraders because they wanna make a profit is stupid. Unlike for the most part IRL, middlemen in online markets help alot more than people are willing to give credit for. Im sure you wouldnt prefer in a new game, when people find outstanding new items, you never get to see them. No wiki entries...no screen shots...just you asking "What is that?" and getting no response.

fenix · Mar 04, 2010, 04:11 AM // 04:11

You guys have had your fun, either stay on topic or I'll close the thread.

For those who are as confused about the topic as I, I think it's something whiney about solo farming being nerfed.

Del · Mar 04, 2010, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Altruism is nice and all, but demonizing powertraders because they wanna make a profit is stupid.

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

If the customer is ULTIMATELY happy with his purchase, everyone wins.

because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Power Traders keep market supply up, even if its for a higher price. When you pay a higher price, you are paying for convenience.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

Farmers like to get back to farming ASAP, so they dump goods at what they find are fair prices.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

Dusk_ · Mar 04, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

people demonize farming calling it a degenerate playstyle, i don't see why people should be called stupid for expressing their opinions on powertraders
because exploiting someone's ignorance of prices is all fine and dandy.

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

in terms of legitimacy, farming > power trading IMO.

You are a complete idiot...

So you're saying the bartering system is criminal? People have been taking advantage of differing individual price points for centuries. The only reason you haven't noticed it is because you buy everything from massive corporations who sell by the thousands, and couldn't care less about finding the optimal sale price from a single customer.

And by the way, these "lowball" offers that you're acting so pissy about are completely natural. It's called haggling. Look it up.

Rampage · Mar 04, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

farmers keep supply up, get your shit straight, powertraders stand around scamming all day for profit.

i find it funny how when i sell my crap in kamadan, i tend to sell cheap just so i can go back to HA/vq/whateverthehell i'm doing, and no matter how reasonable i try to be with my pricing, i get some silly little twit pming me with lowball offers. it ould be one thing if powertraders made reasonable fair offers, but they constantly lowball to save any penny they can for extra profit on the next person they rip off.

You sir, are a retard. How exactly is power trading scamming? You buy an item for a low price by haggling and convincing, and you sell it for a higher price. The seller is fine with the price, the buyer is fine with the price. Where's the scamming in that? Oh right, nowhere. It's not scamming, it's not ripping off. Don't be mad that people make more e-money from standing around in Kamadan than you do wasting hours farming shit.

The-Bigz · Mar 04, 2010, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

You sir, are a retard. How exactly is power trading scamming? You buy an item for a low price by haggling and convincing, and you sell it for a higher price. The seller is fine with the price, the buyer is fine with the price. Where's the scamming in that? Oh right, nowhere. It's not scamming, it's not ripping off. Don't be mad that people make more e-money from standing around in Kamadan than you do wasting hours farming shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

You are a complete idiot...

So you're saying the bartering system is criminal? People have been taking advantage of differing individual price points for centuries. The only reason you haven't noticed it is because you buy everything from massive corporations who sell by the thousands, and couldn't care less about finding the optimal sale price from a single customer.

And by the way, these "lowball" offers that you're acting so pissy about are completely natural. It's called haggling. Look it up.

You shall now be flamed for saying that using logic and brain cells over repetitive boring shit is lame for abusing natural human stupidity and impatience. Wait wut?

Yawgmoth · Mar 04, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you leave the game degenerate, you will lose players.

If you nerf popular farms, you will lose players.

100% true. And that's why they should act really FAST with the PvE nerfs. There's nothing to wait, it's not PvP, mobs around the world won't adapt and find counterstrategies, just admit doing a mistake, say sorry and NERF. Don't let imba degenerate shit run for weeks/months/years or players get used to it as if it was something normal. React immediately when something appears to be vastly overpowered, seriously, in cases of SF and Ursan it was obvious mere days if not hours after the skills became public. Just say "sorry, we made a mistake" and nerf quick.